Terrorism

I am baffled why there are terrorists, I mean, are their grieviences (if i may use the word) genuine or they are mentally deranged? Why cant we find a solution to this problem( of terrorism)?

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  • : I am baffled why there are terrorists, I mean, are their grieviences (if i may use the word) genuine or they are mentally deranged? Why cant we find a solution to this problem( of terrorism)?

    Frustration/desperation mixed with religious hatred = terrorism. They use terrorist tactics because it's the only chance they have of doing any real damage to, for example, the USA. Or Israel. One tiny little sliver of a country fought off all the Arab countries at once. The only chance they have against Israel (especially because the USA gives Israel so much money and weapons) is by trying to unnerve the public through random acts of violence.

    That doesn't mean their tactics will ever get them what they want, but what else are they going to do?


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  • [b][red]This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-14 8:54:7[/red][/b][hr]
    : : I am baffled why there are terrorists, I mean, are their grieviences (if i may use the word) genuine or they are mentally deranged? Why cant we find a solution to this problem( of terrorism)?
    :
    : Frustration/desperation mixed with religious hatred = terrorism.
    [blue]I think it's just a reason which bad people use to cause terrorism. IMO real reasons in most cases are much more complicated. I think in most cases it's jealous and wishes to have power/control without hard work, just sacrificing other people lives. The bad person fired abhorrence/washs brains using people "frustration/desperation mixed with religious fanatism[/blue]
    They use terrorist tactics because it's the only chance they have of doing any real damage to, for example, the USA. Or Israel. One tiny little sliver of a country fought off all the Arab countries at once. The only chance they have against Israel (especially because the USA gives Israel so much money and weapons) is by trying to unnerve the public through random acts of violence.
    :
    : That doesn't mean their tactics will ever get them what they want, but what else are they going to do?
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    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
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    :



  • : [blue]I think it's just a reason which bad people use to cause terrorism. IMO real reasons in most cases are much more complicated. I think in most cases it's jealous and wishes to have power/control without hard work, just sacrificing other people lives. The bad person fired abhorrence/washs brains using people "frustration/desperation mixed with religious fanatism[/blue]

    Its certainly true that people with political motives will take advantage of religious people and use them as tools of terrorism. At least that's true in Islamic countries. Also true to a degree among Christians, but at least the Christians don't strap dynamite to their chests and blow up city buses.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : [blue]I think it's just a reason which bad people use to cause terrorism. IMO real reasons in most cases are much more complicated. I think in most cases it's jealous and wishes to have power/control without hard work, just sacrificing other people lives. The bad person fired abhorrence/washs brains using people "frustration/desperation mixed with religious fanatism[/blue]
    :
    : Its certainly true that people with political motives will take advantage of religious people and use them as tools of terrorism. At least that's true in Islamic countries. Also true to a degree among Christians, but at least the Christians don't strap dynamite to their chests and blow up city buses.
    :
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :
    I do not think that's about religion at all. I agree and disagree about Muslims countries. Agree because they do that. Disagree because just a several years ago some terrorist groups from Christians countries, like IRA in Northern Ireland or ETHA in Spain or Red Brigade in Italy, took a lot of innocent civilians people lives fighting like they said "against government". Most terrorist group, no matter of their religion, usually never fight with Army or other powerful government institutions. There is one more kind of terrorist like "unybomber" and another moron from Oklahoma. They killed innocent people and they were not Muslims. Moreover, I think those two were not religious at all. As you know I am not religious but I think in that case religion is just a tool and, unfortunately, very powerful tool.
  • : I do not think that's about religion at all. I agree and disagree about Muslims countries. Agree because they do that. Disagree because just a several years ago some terrorist groups from Christians countries, like IRA in Northern Ireland or ETHA in Spain or Red Brigade in Italy, took a lot of innocent civilians people lives fighting like they said "against government". Most terrorist group, no matter of their religion, usually never fight with Army or other powerful government institutions. There is one more kind of terrorist like "unybomber" and another moron from Oklahoma. They killed innocent people and they were not Muslims. Moreover, I think those two were not religious at all. As you know I am not religious but I think in that case religion is just a tool and, unfortunately, very powerful tool.

    I've heard a lot about the possibility that Timothy McVeigh had an islamic partner in the Oklahoma bombing, perhaps an Iraqi. I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but it's an interesting idea.

    Of course terrorists never fight armies or governments, they would have no chance. But their goal is to change the behaviour of governments by terrorizing the public so the public pressures their government to change. At least that's the deal with Al-Qaida. The Palestinians and Syrians who terrorize Israel just want to wipe Israel off the Earth.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • [b][red]This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-18 6:3:0[/red][/b][hr]
    :
    : I've heard a lot about the possibility that Timothy McVeigh had an islamic partner in the Oklahoma bombing, perhaps an Iraqi.
    [blue]Sorry, but it sounds like pure rumor [/blue]
    I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but it's an interesting idea.
    :
    : Of course terrorists never fight armies or governments, they would have no chance. But their goal is to change the behaviour of governments by terrorizing the public so the public pressures their government to change. At least that's the deal with Al-Qaida. The Palestinians and Syrians who terrorize Israel just want to wipe Israel off the Earth.
    :
    [blue]That's true about "wipe Israel off the Earth" but there is nothing about religion disagreement/diferences. Remember, all Arabs countries are ruled by dictators regims. So Israel with its democracy is very "bad" example for people living in Arab's countries. May be tomorrow some of them will want to live in democratic country and kick out current dictator and his family. That's why powerful people in those countries fired religious hatred against Israel and US, biggest Israel supporter, among their people. They tried to do that since Israel was established as a State back to 1948 [/blue].
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :



  • : :
    : : I've heard a lot about the possibility that Timothy McVeigh had an islamic partner in the Oklahoma bombing, perhaps an Iraqi.
    : [blue]Sorry, but it sounds like pure rumor [/blue]
    : I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but it's an interesting idea.
    : :
    : : Of course terrorists never fight armies or governments, they would have no chance. But their goal is to change the behaviour of governments by terrorizing the public so the public pressures their government to change. At least that's the deal with Al-Qaida. The Palestinians and Syrians who terrorize Israel just want to wipe Israel off the Earth.
    : :
    : [blue]That's true about "wipe Israel off the Earth" but there is nothing about religion disagreement/diferences. Remember, all Arabs countries are ruled but dictators regims. So Israel with its democracy is very "bad" example for people living in Arab's countries. May be tomorrow some of them will want to live in democratic country and kick out current dictator and his family. That's why powerful people in those countries fired religious hatred against Israel and US, biggest Israel supporter, among their people. They tried to do that since Israel was established as a State back to 1948 [/blue].
    : : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    : :
    : :
    : ::I have been reading you guys' posts with fascination, and just getting to know what your perspectives are on terrorism. Apparently we agree to the point that terrorism is bad, guys like Tim Mcveigh, they scare (or is it scared?) me a lot!
    Anyway, how about the impasse between Israel and Palestine? Is it not possible to have a two state solution in which the Palestinians live in their own country and the same to the Israelis? I certainly do not understand what prevents such a logical (or maybe fair) solution.
    What i think is the problem with the two waring (pardon me for the word), parties cannot be treated in a case of absolute black and white, where we can say the Israelis are bad or the Palestinians are bad, i think both sides have valid arguments and so need to compromise, trust and treat each other as human beings, not Infidels and terrorists.
    All attempts at peace without the above are like trying to do a heart transplant without anaesthetics!
    What i can point to, to illustrate the above point is: - If there is a young boy, say 6 yrs old in Palestine, whose elder brother carries out a suicide attack, (assuming that the boy does not understand any rubbish about martyrdom) if now the Israelis respond by razing the suicide bomber 's family's house to the ground, for the young boy, his brother 's actions are vindicated!
    So, in as much as terrorism is bad, we have to also think of what drives people to such extremes (maybe its the denial of basic right like:- All human beings being born equal!). When we do that , we can have , at least a starting point in dealing with these members of society

    :

  • : : :
    : : : I've heard a lot about the possibility that Timothy McVeigh had an islamic partner in the Oklahoma bombing, perhaps an Iraqi.
    : : [blue]Sorry, but it sounds like pure rumor [/blue]
    : : I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but it's an interesting idea.
    : : :
    : : : Of course terrorists never fight armies or governments, they would have no chance. But their goal is to change the behaviour of governments by terrorizing the public so the public pressures their government to change. At least that's the deal with Al-Qaida. The Palestinians and Syrians who terrorize Israel just want to wipe Israel off the Earth.
    : : :
    : : [blue]That's true about "wipe Israel off the Earth" but there is nothing about religion disagreement/diferences. Remember, all Arabs countries are ruled but dictators regims. So Israel with its democracy is very "bad" example for people living in Arab's countries. May be tomorrow some of them will want to live in democratic country and kick out current dictator and his family. That's why powerful people in those countries fired religious hatred against Israel and US, biggest Israel supporter, among their people. They tried to do that since Israel was established as a State back to 1948 [/blue].
    : : : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    : : :
    : : :
    : : ::I have been reading you guys' posts with fascination, and just getting to know what your perspectives are on terrorism. Apparently we agree to the point that terrorism is bad, guys like Tim Mcveigh, they scare (or is it scared?) me a lot!
    : Anyway, how about the impasse between Israel and Palestine? Is it not possible to have a two state solution in which the Palestinians live in their own country and the same to the Israelis? I certainly do not understand what prevents such a logical (or maybe fair) solution.
    [red]The problem between Israel and Palestine began many hundreds of years ago, funnily enough. Both countries believe that the land that Israel is now situated on was given and belonged to their ancestors. And both parties are willing to die to prove that. Because this argument began so long ago, it is now just hatred based on history and the past, but because they have lived with it for so long, many of them know nothing else. [/red]



    : What i think is the problem with the two waring (pardon me for the word), parties cannot be treated in a case of absolute black and white, where we can say the Israelis are bad or the Palestinians are bad, i think both sides have valid arguments and so need to compromise, trust and treat each other as human beings, not Infidels and terrorists.
    [red]I can understand your point here but because this has been going on for so long, pure compromise probably won't work. This is something that is set deep within the hearts of the Israeli and Palestine people. [/red]

    : All attempts at peace without the above are like trying to do a heart transplant without anaesthetics!
    : What i can point to, to illustrate the above point is: - If there is a young boy, say 6 yrs old in Palestine, whose elder brother carries out a suicide attack, (assuming that the boy does not understand any rubbish about martyrdom) if now the Israelis respond by razing the suicide bomber 's family's house to the ground, for the young boy, his brother 's actions are vindicated!
    : So, in as much as terrorism is bad, we have to also think of what drives people to such extremes (maybe its the denial of basic right like:- All human beings being born equal!). When we do that , we can have , at least a starting point in dealing with these members of society
    :
    : :
    :

    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]do[/RED]d[/blue][red]ge[/red][/italic][/size]
  • : [red]The problem between Israel and Palestine began many hundreds of years ago, funnily enough. Both countries believe that the land that Israel is now situated on was given and belonged to their ancestors. And both parties are willing to die to prove that. Because this argument began so long ago, it is now just hatred based on history and the past, but because they have lived with it for so long, many of them know nothing else. [/red]

    Actually, so far as I know, only the Jews (and most Christians, btw) believe the land was given to the Jews by God Himself. When the Roman empire destroyed Solomon's Temple and scattered the Jews, over time the Arabs moved in and then when Israel was created, the Arabs got kicked out. So we have one group of people claiming divine right to the land, and another people who lived there for many centuries forced out of their homes. This is why the Palestinians typically demand the right to return to their homes for any peace plan, and the Israelis refuse, because if all the Palestinian Arabs who were forced out of their homes were allowed to return, the Israelis would be a minority in "their" country.

    : [red]I can understand your point here but because this has been going on for so long, pure compromise probably won't work. This is something that is set deep within the hearts of the Israeli and Palestine people. [/red]

    There are a number of factors that make compromise impossible. First you have the Arabs who will not accept any outcome other than the death of every Israeli. Then you have the Israelies (and the Christians who support them) who will not rest until all lands mentioned in the Bible are once again part of Israel. Then you have the other Arab governments who instead of assimilating the Palestinian refugees into their countries made them live in massive camps where religious hatred is very easily fostered. And you have the Israeli government outgunning the entire Middle East with hardware from the USA.

    If you ask me, everything would've been so much easier if we had just given Utah to the Jews after WWII instead of trying to re-create a country which hadn't existed for nearly 2000 years.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • : : [red]The problem between Israel and Palestine began many hundreds of years ago, funnily enough. Both countries believe that the land that Israel is now situated on was given and belonged to their ancestors. And both parties are willing to die to prove that. Because this argument began so long ago, it is now just hatred based on history and the past, but because they have lived with it for so long, many of them know nothing else. [/red]
    :
    : Actually, so far as I know, only the Jews (and most Christians, btw) believe the land was given to the Jews by God Himself. When the Roman empire destroyed Solomon's Temple and scattered the Jews, over time the Arabs moved in and then when Israel was created, the Arabs got kicked out. So we have one group of people claiming divine right to the land, and another people who lived there for many centuries forced out of their homes. This is why the Palestinians typically demand the right to return to their homes for any peace plan, and the Israelis refuse, because if all the Palestinian Arabs who were forced out of their homes were allowed to return, the Israelis would be a minority in "their" country.
    :
    : : [red]I can understand your point here but because this has been going on for so long, pure compromise probably won't work. This is something that is set deep within the hearts of the Israeli and Palestine people. [/red]
    :
    : There are a number of factors that make compromise impossible. First you have the Arabs who will not accept any outcome other than the death of every Israeli. Then you have the Israelies (and the Christians who support them) who will not rest until all lands mentioned in the Bible are once again part of Israel. Then you have the other Arab governments who instead of assimilating the Palestinian refugees into their countries made them live in massive camps where religious hatred is very easily fostered. And you have the Israeli government outgunning the entire Middle East with hardware from the USA.
    :
    : If you ask me, everything would've been so much easier if we had just given Utah to the Jews after WWII instead of trying to re-create a country which hadn't existed for nearly 2000 years.
    :
    :
    [red] Utah?!!! HAHAHAHAH!! Yes, good choice!!



    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
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    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]do[/RED]d[/blue][red]ge[/red][/italic][/size]

  • : If you ask me, everything would've been so much easier if we had just given Utah to the Jews after WWII instead of trying to re-create a country which hadn't existed for nearly 2000 years.
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    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
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    Why Utah, not Arizona?
  • : : [red]The problem between Israel and Palestine began many hundreds of years ago, funnily enough. Both countries believe that the land that Israel is now situated on was given and belonged to their ancestors. And both parties are willing to die to prove that. Because this argument began so long ago, it is now just hatred based on history and the past, but because they have lived with it for so long, many of them know nothing else. [/red]
    :
    : Actually, so far as I know, only the Jews (and most Christians, btw) believe the land was given to the Jews by God Himself. When the Roman empire destroyed Solomon's Temple and scattered the Jews, over time the Arabs moved in and then when Israel was created, the Arabs got kicked out. So we have one group of people claiming divine right to the land, and another people who lived there for many centuries forced out of their homes. This is why the Palestinians typically demand the right to return to their homes for any peace plan, and the Israelis refuse, because if all the Palestinian Arabs who were forced out of their homes were allowed to return, the Israelis would be a minority in "their" country.
    :
    : : [red]I can understand your point here but because this has been going on for so long, pure compromise probably won't work. This is something that is set deep within the hearts of the Israeli and Palestine people. [/red]
    :
    : There are a number of factors that make compromise impossible. First you have the Arabs who will not accept any outcome other than the death of every Israeli. Then you have the Israelies (and the Christians who support them) who will not rest until all lands mentioned in the Bible are once again part of Israel. Then you have the other Arab governments who instead of assimilating the Palestinian refugees into their countries made them live in massive camps where religious hatred is very easily fostered. And you have the Israeli government outgunning the entire Middle East with hardware from the USA.
    :
    : If you ask me, everything would've been so much easier if we had just given Utah to the Jews after WWII instead of trying to re-create a country which hadn't existed for nearly 2000 years.
    :
    :
    : [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]
    :
    :

    [red] lionb, Utah is the largest Mormon state in the US... [/red]

    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]do[/RED]d[/blue][red]ge[/red][/italic][/size]
  • [b][red]This message was edited by lionb at 2003-8-19 7:7:1[/red][/b][hr]
    [red] lionb, Utah is the largest Mormon state in the US... [/red]
    [blue] Really? I live in the US and "didn't" know that. But it's still not largest Jewish state of the US. So, why Utah? [/blue]


  • (dodge) lionb, Utah is the largest Mormon state in the US...

    (lionb) Really? I live in the US and "didn't" know that. But it's still not largest Jewish state of the US. So, why Utah?

    Those who believe the land of Canaa was given to the Jews by God and want all of that land to belong to Israel are called "Zionists". It has something to do with "Zion" being the promised city, or Jerusalem, or something (I forget exactly). Utah has a place named Zion. Therefore, if we had given Utah to the Jews, they'd have a Zion to call home and there wouldn't be any problem with the Middle East.

    :-)

    Well, that's not entirely true since back at the time there were Jewish groups pushing for the recreation of Israel, even violently (or so I've heard).

    The Mormons are an odd lot. They believe they are some sort of continuation of the ancient temple-based Jewish religion. That's why they build all of their temples and hold their most secret ceremonies therein. Utah was basically founded by the Mormons when Brigham Young led them West after Joseph Smith was murdered. If I recall, the people of Missouri (or somewhere further East) didn't much care for them, so they went to Utah and settled there. There's a lot more history there that I just don't know enough about to comment on accurately. I think it was Brigham Young who named Zion, Utah because it was beautiful like paradise. I'm not sure if their mythology goes any further than that metaphor.


    [size=5][italic][blue][RED]i[/RED]nfidel[/blue][/italic][/size]

  • Those who believe the land of Canaa was given to the Jews by God and want all of that land to belong to Israel are called "Zionists". It has something to do with "Zion" being the promised city, or Jerusalem, or something (I forget exactly). Utah has a place named Zion. Therefore, if we had given Utah to the Jews, they'd have a Zion to call home and there wouldn't be any problem with the Middle East.
    [blue] Nevertheless, Jewish community in Utah is one of the smallest in the US. By the way, there a lot of places in the US called Zion and something. There is one place like that just a 10 min driving from my house. Never heard that neither Mormons nor Jewish lived there ... [/blue]
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