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Thoughts about openGL....

PAGPAG Member Posts: 168
I have tried programming with openGL, I did the famous triangle thingy, but I must say that I defenetly dont like the way it's done. All you do is calling functions, never really any programming, and I dont like that way of doing it, sure it's easy but it doesnt feel like it's me who is creating... Am I stupid or something? or is there anyone else here who have the same thoughts? Also I've tried DirectX, but the code simply gets so unclean for my taste, but still it's what im programming now... Anyone knows any other choices, besides openGL and directX? Is there a way you can take control over the win OS without these libs? I know I wont get any nice hardware advantages, but the graphics im doing now 3d or 2d doesnt need them yet, and I get more satisfaction of programming something that I know that I have done everything for myself, and thats what really counts from my point of view, im not a programmer who wants to create the next generation game with super graphics, just do my own, so you could probably call me a hobby programmer, sure later in life I might start study advanced game programming, but that would probably not happen until next year or the year after that....

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  • etlusketlusk Member Posts: 168
    : I have tried programming with openGL, I did the famous triangle thingy, but I must say that I defenetly dont like the way it's done. All you do is calling functions, never really any programming, and I dont like that way of doing it, sure it's easy but it doesnt feel like it's me who is creating... Am I stupid or something? or is there anyone else here who have the same thoughts? Also I've tried DirectX, but the code simply gets so unclean for my taste, but still it's what im programming now... Anyone knows any other choices, besides openGL and directX? Is there a way you can take control over the win OS without these libs? I know I wont get any nice hardware advantages, but the graphics im doing now 3d or 2d doesnt need them yet, and I get more satisfaction of programming something that I know that I have done everything for myself, and thats what really counts from my point of view, im not a programmer who wants to create the next generation game with super graphics, just do my own, so you could probably call me a hobby programmer, sure later in life I might start study advanced game programming, but that would probably not happen until next year or the year after that....
    :

    You might try writing your own 3d graphics library. I'm sure that would keep pulling your hair out for the next 10 years. If you think OPENGL is easy, you haven't gone very far into it.
    Try writing a 3D model editor in OPENGL and don't use the 'easy' functions. You can easly use it as just a platform to display the results of your own functions.
    Just have your functions write directly to the frame buffer. It should be quite fun figuring out all the code to produce even the simplist 3d image. Oh yea, and those camera and projection calculations. Not to forget all that geomtery and trig stuff.
    Gee, why not just use the WINDOW$ graphic primatives and blit yourself to death. The WINDOWS API provides LINE, RECT, POINT, CIRCLE(opps, write a circle plotting routine using POINT instead).

  • PAGPAG Member Posts: 168
    : You might try writing your own 3d graphics library. I'm sure that would keep pulling your hair out for the next 10 years. If you think

    hmm... I dont know how slow you program, eh... I have already made a 3d graphics lib but for dos, and that didnt take more then 3 weeks, I think... Sure it didnt support all texture mappings and stuff like that but why program things you're never going to use?

    OPENGL is easy, you haven't gone very far into it.
    : Try writing a 3D model editor in OPENGL and don't use the 'easy' functions. You can easly use it as just a platform to display the results of your own functions.

    hmm... okay perhaps I havent been into openGL to deep to say if it's easy or not. But the people around the net seems to think it's the easy language and D3D is the harder one.. Now I didnt mean that I dont think you can do advanced things with openGL, rather the opposite... It's just that calling functions with different parameters isn't programming for me, but as you said maybe I havent gone far enough into it, so Ive decide to give it a second chance and read through nehe's tutorials and learn everything what says in it, and see if I change my mind... And as I read another thread on this board it seems like OpenGL is the right way to go...

    : Just have your functions write directly to the frame buffer. It should be quite fun figuring out all the code to produce even the simplist 3d image. Oh yea, and those camera and projection calculations. Not to forget all that geomtery and trig stuff.
    : Gee, why not just use the WINDOW$ graphic primatives and blit yourself to death. The WINDOWS API provides LINE, RECT, POINT, CIRCLE(opps, write a circle plotting routine using POINT instead).
    :
    :

  • etlusketlusk Member Posts: 168
    [b][red]This message was edited by the etlusk at 2002-7-16 6:10:12[/red][/b][hr]
    You might take what a lot of people say here 'with a grain of salt'.
    There are many who have learned just enough to make them think they are masters of coding (inflated egos..shear ignorance..ect). The real measure is in the end results. I've seen code posted, that according to the description, would make MICROSOFT green with envy. Only to download and compile something that looks like something I wrote in High School on my TRS-80. Not to mention the hunderds of people that have written DOOM/QUAKE/WOLF3D clones. What a was of time!
    You may want to get the source code for OPENGL functions and see if you can make them better. That would be outstanding. However, it was written by some very good programmers.
    Good Luck
    Check out AYAM.COM and look into PIXELAR's PHOTOREALISAM stuff. It's how they do those COOL CGI films like TOYS, CHICHEN RUN, and the INDUSTRIAL LIGHT and MAGIC space flick graphics.




  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    I agree here. OpenGL is easy enough to get basic stuff up, which should get enough of your intrest to make you want to delve farther into it and do more, such as 3D models. I started at NeHe's site, but he used GLUT and also used some VERY unefficient coding methods, but they worked and you could figure out how it was done. I use OpenGL for my game engine and I am debating scrapping the nearly non-existant DX renderer because it's so much slower and doesn't look quite as good. Here's an example of a few optimizations that can double or triple your frames/resources.

    1a) Note how in NeHe's tutorial of a "3D" world, he rotates EVERY polygon to suit the camera location (which remains at 0,0,0). Try doing that with something like an Unreal or Morrowind map!

    1b) Rip all the transform loops and simply use gluLookAt() to move the camera. This saves a TON of GPU and helps frames. This also prevents major distortions after moving around for so long.

    2a) GLUT makes OpenGL SUPER-EASY! This also makes it super-slow. Well maybe not super-slow, but much slower than without GLUT. If you're using GLUT, just use the built-in functions or write your own to do the same stuff, but cut out all the bs.

    2b) After I removed GLUT (even the libraries) and started using plain OpenGL my framerate shot up 30-60fps depending on the poly-counts on my maps. I also wrote a VERY simple function that makes my OpenGL windows for me. You simply call it and specify the bits (16 or 32). Easy and since it is only called at startup it drains virtually no CPU/GPU.

    If you want some advanced OpenGL coding examples, I'll show you a few that I am working on. I can bet you money that you'll be lost and have a new perspective on OpenGL when you're done viewing them. I'm no master coder yet, but I do know that if you're calling OpenGL "easy", then you want to do triangles only, you're some godlike coder, or you have no clue how in-depth OpenGL can get.

    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • etlusketlusk Member Posts: 168
    : I agree here. OpenGL is easy enough to get basic stuff up, which should get enough of your intrest to make you want to delve farther into it and do more, such as 3D models. I started at NeHe's site, but he used GLUT and also used some VERY unefficient coding methods, but they worked and you could figure out how it was done. I use OpenGL for my game engine and I am debating scrapping the nearly non-existant DX renderer because it's so much slower and doesn't look quite as good. Here's an example of a few optimizations that can double or triple your frames/resources.
    :
    : 1a) Note how in NeHe's tutorial of a "3D" world, he rotates EVERY polygon to suit the camera location (which remains at 0,0,0). Try doing that with something like an Unreal or Morrowind map!
    :
    : 1b) Rip all the transform loops and simply use gluLookAt() to move the camera. This saves a TON of GPU and helps frames. This also prevents major distortions after moving around for so long.
    :
    : 2a) GLUT makes OpenGL SUPER-EASY! This also makes it super-slow. Well maybe not super-slow, but much slower than without GLUT. If you're using GLUT, just use the built-in functions or write your own to do the same stuff, but cut out all the bs.
    :
    : 2b) After I removed GLUT (even the libraries) and started using plain OpenGL my framerate shot up 30-60fps depending on the poly-counts on my maps. I also wrote a VERY simple function that makes my OpenGL windows for me. You simply call it and specify the bits (16 or 32). Easy and since it is only called at startup it drains virtually no CPU/GPU.
    :
    : If you want some advanced OpenGL coding examples, I'll show you a few that I am working on. I can bet you money that you'll be lost and have a new perspective on OpenGL when you're done viewing them. I'm no master coder yet, but I do know that if you're calling OpenGL "easy", then you want to do triangles only, you're some godlike coder, or you have no clue how in-depth OpenGL can get.
    :
    : -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]
    :
    :
    Well I'm glad to see somebody goes beyond the 'example' programs.
    Me, I'm into the photorealistic area. I'm working on shader (RENDERMAN)stuff for OPENGL. I've written loaders for most of the 3d file formats because nobody has posted anything that works(as needed). And I working on (RENDERMAN) shading for OpenGL.
    I'd like to see what you have. I know OpenGL is NOT EASY and I love to see what other 'GLheads' are doing. So send me something.
    ET.......

  • ValdermanValderman Member Posts: 22
    Since you all say that GLUT is so slow, perhaps you could tell me where I can find some tutorials or references on how to do OpenGL coding without GLUT?

    /Valderman

  • etlusketlusk Member Posts: 168
    : Since you all say that GLUT is so slow, perhaps you could tell me where I can find some tutorials or references on how to do OpenGL coding without GLUT?
    :
    : /Valderman
    :
    :
    For me, the speed thing seems to show up when I write code with the WINDOWS API. And the display is realy bad (I mean horriable). But since it only does it on my laptop I blame it on the Video Driver.
    But I have found I get better results if it's compiled from a unix or Linix source and run it as a console app. It's faster and looks better.
    ET

  • SephirothSephiroth Fayetteville, NC, USAMember Posts: 1,035
    : Since you all say that GLUT is so slow, perhaps you could tell me where I can find some tutorials or references on how to do OpenGL coding without GLUT?
    :
    : /Valderman
    :
    :
    Know how I learned it? I went to the online redbook and bluebook for OpenGL coding. There are links to those two from http://www.gamedev.net/ and I highly recomend checking them out.

    As for my sources, I guess I should do a simple OpenGL app and release. Right now I am coding a 3D game and engine that is already on the level of Unreal and I hope to be at the Morrowind level shortly. No audio though, and keys are not yet configurable. I've poured several years of my life into this project and I don't release the code. I do plan on making money from this in the long run :P!

    -[italic][b][red]S[/red][purple]e[/purple][blue]p[/blue][green]h[/green][red]i[/red][purple]r[/purple][blue]o[/blue][green]t[/green][red]h[/red][/b][/italic]

  • ValdermanValderman Member Posts: 22
    Cool! How about posting some screenshots?

    /Valderman

  • Andre YoungAndre Young USAMember Posts: 0

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